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ZACH MOORE: Welcome to On Health with Houston Methodist. I'm Zach Moore. I'm a photographer and editor here, and I'm also a long-time podcaster.

KIM RIVERA HUSTON-WEBER: I'm Kim Rivera Huston-Weber, and I'm a copywriter here at Houston Methodist.

ZACH: Kim, are you bored?

KIM: Right now?

ZACH: Right now.

KIM: No, I feel like I'm in that sweet spot where I'm engaged and then also I think I'm getting enough input, you know what I mean?

ZACH: Okay. Do you ever find yourself bored?

KIM: You know, I've found that lately instead of just kind of sitting with myself, like at times where I might be waiting in line or maybe I'm sitting on the train, I'll be looking at my phone instead of just looking out the window or something like that. So I think I'm one of many people that when I have a spare moment, I'm looking at my phone.

ZACH: Yes. I find myself, any pause.

KIM: Mm-hmm.

ZACH: In any situation, in any place, anytime, "Oh, better pull up my phone." It's a bad habit.

KIM: Yeah, I find myself being the person that has the TV on and I'm cooking, and then also like I'm looking at my phone because that's where the recipe is, and it's just... there's all these inputs.

ZACH: Well, I think there's a couple of different paths to that, right? One is what you're talking about, multitasking. Like, "Oh, well, if I'm going to be doing the laundry and the dishes, let me put on the baseball game or listen to a podcast," right? Or cooking, "Oh, there's my laptop with the recipes," that sort of thing. So good-intentioned multitasking. But then the other side of it is trying to just push out all thoughts. I saw a perfect meme about this a few years ago and it's a person with headphones on, TV, at the computer with the phone, and it said, "Consuming five forms of media to prevent any single thought from occurring." I'm like, "Yeah, I've been there. I think we've all been there," right? It's like it's the opposite of disconnecting, it's over connecting, right? You just wanna overstimulate and distract yourself from whatever might be going on in your life. It doesn't matter what that might be, but you just don't wanna exist there, so you're going to just try and... just flashing lights everywhere, and you know what I'm saying?

KIM: Yeah. After a hard day of work, what do you wanna do? You just wanna celebrate with some screens. It doesn't, but you know, it doesn't necessarily make sense because it continues to keep you activated, which is kind of the opposite of what we wanna be doing.

ZACH: Yeah, I mean so many jobs today, we're at a screen, and then you go home, well, even before you get home, you get off work, or maybe while you're at work, you have your phone screen, right? And then you go home and you turn on your TV, which is a big screen, and then you open up your laptop, and then you have your phone, and it's just an overwhelming amount of input into your body, and we were not really built for this, right? So that's what we're talking about today, the response to this societal shift towards overstimulation.

KIM: I think that's one of the things that's interesting about this trend you see online where people are saying that they're, excuse the phrase, "rawdogging boredom," where they're just trying to sit still without any possible input.

ZACH: Mm, interesting. Who did we talk to about this, Kim?

KIM: We spoke with Dr. Ana Williams. She is a health behavior clinician here at Houston Methodist.

I don't know if you've seen these videos online, but there's something of a wellness challenge where people are saying they are "rawdogging boredom." So people will go without screens, whether it's TV or their phones. They're not playing music. Some of them won't eat. And people are also doing this on these long-haul international flights as well. And I think it's okay for you to have the flight map on, but other than that, no other outside media. And so it seems to me that people nowadays are defining boredom kind of in relation to our technology. But I'm curious to know what the actual definition of boredom is, and is it more of a feeling or is it an experience that we have?

DR. ANA WILLIAMS: Yes. So what your brain basically wants out of engagement is something that's not too hard, not too meaningful, not too easy. Anything outside of that sweet spot is when boredom actually sets in. So all of this rawdogging and the doomscrolling, which has also been another term in social media, is all basically removing that constant stimulation. So for some people, that feels easy and that feels okay, and there could be two people sitting in the same exact environment, one of which is extremely bored and the other person is actually okay sitting in that stillness. So that's a perfect example that, there could be one environment and two completely different responses to stimulus.

KIM: Yeah.

DR. WILLIAMS: So sitting on a plane with literally nothing to do except for a flight map to some people feels like they're rawdogging something, and to other people, it just feels like actual peace because they've removed all of the constant stimulus that they're used to gravitating towards when they're "bored," quote-unquote. But boredom is a very complex situation and relationship that people don't prioritize or emphasize the importance of actually stepping away from it and actually disengaging and being intentional about what the engagement is.

KIM: When we're talking about kind of this input and no two people are really going to experience maybe boredom the same way, what does the medical community know about boredom?

DR. WILLIAMS: So boredom involves, like I said, attention, motivation, our emotional regulation. When we're bored, our brain is basically looking for novelty or purpose or some sort of stimulation. So short periods of boredom are actually very healthy for us. Chronic boredom is what leads into any mental health conditions or concerns like depression or anxiety. So we really wanna pay attention to how chronic the boredom is versus a short burst of boredom, which is actually excellent for our mental health. And there was a study in Canada that was done by some researchers with beans, and what they did was they took, I think it was like 50 participants, and they gave them two bags of beans. There was a white bag of beans and a red bag of beans, and they told them to put them in the same dish, stir them up, and they put a timer on the clock for 30 minutes. So one group had to take all the beans and separate the red and the white beans and essentially be bored for 30 minutes, while the other group had the red and the white beans and they needed to make art out of the beans.

KIM: Mm.

DR. WILLIAMS: After those 30 minutes were over, the next timer went on and it was for 5 minutes, and they were asked to come up with a list of things that you could tell your boss for reasons why you were late to work. And what they found was that the people that were bored and that were separating the beans came up with a more creative and exhaustive list than the people that were creative during that time and created art with the beans. So it's a perfect explanation that when we are bored, we're able to be more creative at the end of that.

KIM: That's so interesting, because, you know, often we probably think of having kind of the constant stimulation as being activating for us. So, you know, I'm curious to know, when we're bored, does the body respond in a certain way? 'Cause you know when you're angry, our pulse can race, or if we're sad, we cry. Does the body experience boredom a certain way?

DR. WILLIAMS: Not as intensely as anger or fear or sadness, like crying, but it's the nervous system regulation or dysregulation. So that kind of brings me to that point of doomscrolling where we think, "Okay, I'm just vegging out, no harm, no foul, I'll just sit on my phone and scroll." That is actually dysregulating your nervous system because it's basically keeping your brain searching for the next thing to think about. Without even realizing it, we're just kind of overloading our nervous system. So that would not be something that we wanna do when we're feeling bored or when we're wanting to just decompress. Sitting on your phone and doomscrolling is actually not helpful to your nervous system at all.

KIM: I've been very guilty of doomscrolling a time or two. And is something like that what leads us to be bored and continue to kind of engage in this cycle, or, you know, when we're thinking about what causes boredom, what's the most common cause?

DR. WILLIAMS: So the most common cause is that your brain is sitting in the state of "I want stimulus," but this is too much or this is too little. Like I said, anything out of that sweet spot of something that's not meaningful is when boredom actually starts to set in. So there's a lot happening with the neural pathways, and memory actually increases when we're bored, but being bored is excellent for our memory. Think about... think about when you were cramming for a test when you were growing up, and it's like this last-minute studying, the test is coming up, you're walking to class, you're cramming everything in, you're quizzing yourself, and then you get to the test and all the memory falls out the window and you can't remember anything that you just crammed in. That's a perfect example of how healthy it is to step away from things. Study, step away from it, everything that you learn, that new neural pathway can reconnect and then come back to it and your memory is actually a lot better.

KIM: So interesting. And you had kind of mentioned mental health issues coming up from being chronically bored, so I mean, is that kind of the worst-case scenario when we're chronically bored, what can happen, and then, conversely, what happens if we never really allow ourselves to be bored?

DR. WILLIAMS: So risks of chronic boredom would be linked to increased stress, depression, impulsive behaviors, and any of those unhealthy coping mechanisms, such as doomscrolling. So what they've seen in research is that there's an increase in substance abuse as well when we're bored, which is an impulsive behavior. It's something that we're just doing to kill and pass time. And so a lot of the vices actually come from being bored and not using it productively. But that's a tricky thing because how do I do something productively that's truly meaningful and not just a distraction? So like I said, it's about what you replace the phone with, or it's about what you replace the alcohol bottle with, or what you replace... yeah, just a vice or smoking, anything that's just been like an unhealthy coping mechanism would be a risk of something that's a chronic boredom. Positive things and short periods of boredom, like I said, are super healthy. They allow space for creativity and reflection, a lot of problem-solving. I think of problem-solving when we're in the shower and we're just like solving our day. We're being productive in the same way that we're being productive when we're bored. Staring and looking out the window, spending time just sitting on a bus or sitting on a plane, not necessarily categorizing it as rawdogging, but sitting and just thinking in your own thoughts and problem solving, kind of your own processing time happens when we're bored. And research backs exactly that, that there's actual creativity and productivity that come out of those short periods of it.

KIM: Now that you say that, you know, I do think sometimes when I'm in the shower or I'm doing something like washing the dishes, I think that's most of the time when I'm doing problem-solving, whether it's for work or home. Like, that's... I have that time because washing the dishes is kind of boring.

DR. WILLIAMS: Exactly.

KIM: And so it just kind of like, "Oh, this is my little time where I can think about this silly work problem" or whatever it is.

DR. WILLIAMS: Exactly. And there's been a lot of studies. That bean study is just one example, but there's been a lot of studies where they've asked two people to fold laundry with static on the TV, and that's another, again, very boring thing. There's no stimulus happening. It's actually annoying that there's static on the TV. Some people maybe don't know what static on the TV is. But that's another perfect example where we're bored and then they're tasked with something after that extremely boring activity, and there's actually results of a lot of creativity that happen.

KIM: I often think of, you know, when you're out to eat with somebody and maybe they have to get up and go to the bathroom, like your first instinct is to grab that phone, right, and just like scroll for a little bit. If we're kind of filling all of these smaller moments with our phones or distractions, is there a risk that we can become overstimulated at all?

DR. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. Phones have actually stolen our ability to be productively bored. So, remember that short boredom is what pushes you towards actual productivity and creativity. But always gravitating towards grabbing your phone or stimulus is what is... is the nervous system dysregulation. So you wanna keep in mind what you're replacing any boredom with. What are you replacing time of stillness with? Are you replacing it with just nervous system overload and doomscrolling and stimulus when you're already thinking about sitting in a restaurant, you've got noise, you've got other conversations, you've got just the engagement that you've had with the person that you were sitting with. Is it necessary to sit on your phone and add any more stimulus to the situation? No, but it is almost like we're just, we're thinking we're bored and we need to fill that boredom. What would actually be healthier is to sit and wonder, assess, process, problem solve. How was that conversation? How do I feel? What are those people talking about? How did I like my meal? A lot of times just the processing and sitting in stillness is actually so much more beneficial for our mental health than skipping and breezing through any of that processing and intuition that we could have and just going on to what can my brain now next think about.

KIM: Yeah. No, that makes sense. And, you know, I don't know. I love being the person who kind of overhears people's conversations, but now I've put that out there. So if anybody sees me out and about, they're going to be like, "She's listening to me." Is this kind of rawdogging phenomenon that people are describing... is it -- are people not describing boredom, but rather meditation? And is there any like kind of connection between boredom and mindfulness practices, whether it's meditation or maybe praying?

DR. WILLIAMS: I think that is part of the problem, is that we are confusing disengaging and relaxation or an opportunity to meditate with what we're labeling as boredom. So take sitting on the flight and turning off your phone, not having a podcast in, not having music, looking at a flight map, and I think what is starting to happen is we're spending that time fighting with ourselves. "How long has the time passed? Okay, what am I supposed to be doing now? Am I supposed to be thinking about something? How is this supposed to be feeling?" And we're kind of distracting ourselves from sitting in the present and using it as a meditation experience. So if you're finding yourself wanting to try this challenge or wanting to rawdog an eight-hour flight internationally, I would actually invite you to ground yourself in the present moment. There's some grounding examples that you could just use your five senses, and that would re-bring you back into the present. So use your sight, smell, taste, hearing, and touch and bring yourself into the current moment versus allowing your thoughts to kind of flee and escape out of the present and kind of disassociate out of what are you currently feeling, because it's very uncomfortable. A lot of us have a very hard time sitting with ourselves, our thoughts, our experiences. And so that is where the confusion lies of like this could have been a meditation or this could have been a grounding experience and I could have actually connected with what am I feeling right now? Blood pressure, heart rate, muscle tension. Am I crunching any muscles? Am I going against gravity? Is there anything happening inside my body or my mind that I'm trying to run away from? And I think that's what majority of it is, is I'm actually trying to run away from what's happening on the inside. So let me go and challenge myself with rawdogging something, but actually sitting and thinking about all these other things instead of actually being intuitive.

KIM: So it might feel like choosing boredom or being present and putting down our phone is a conscious choice that we're making in a lot of scenarios, whether it's commuting, like we're sitting on the train, or we're waiting in line. So is there a benefit to us limiting screen time in this way and kind of turning away from technology in these smaller moments?

DR. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. And again, remember it's not just that we're trying to remove the phone. It's what are we replacing the phone with? So you want any of the digital detox to be paired with like a real-world activity. So walking or grounding ourselves, like meditation could be a perfect example, mindfulness, maybe socializing in an engaging way and not just small talk that actually doesn't feed your soul at all. Really try and be intuitive with what are you replacing that phone with, and it's going to work dramatically better than just white-knuckling it through any type of boredom or anything that, "Okay, I'm not supposed to be on my phone, so let me put my phone away and now I'm escaping how this feels to just sit without my phone.

KIM: Tech is so interwoven into our daily lives. Is a complete and total digital detox realistic? Is it possible for us to do?

DR. WILLIAMS: I don't think it's realistic or possible or necessary. I think just small steps and awareness is the first step. Are we even aware of how much stimulus we're getting in a day? So think about from the moment you open your eyes, what are you reaching for? From getting you through household tasks, do you have music on? Do you have people that you're socializing with? Are there kids running around? Is there TV in the background? You're getting in your car, there's I feel like everybody that I see in their car is on their phone, which is a ticket waiting to happen, but we're not supposed to be multitasking in the way that society has created us to be multitasking. So we've kind of taken like the multitasking term and actually changed it into just nervous system overload. We don't need to have all of that stimulation at one time. So to answer your question, do we need to be off of our phones in days on end? No, nor do I think it would be safe or necessary at this point. Just be aware of how much you're on it and how much stimulus you're getting throughout the day through your phone, your car, work, and just slowly start to chip away at it. Go into your settings on your phone, see if there's any regulation to any of your apps or any of your screen time. I tried it for a long time. I tried to put limits on my social media apps. You can just click through it, like you could just say, "Okay, got it, I know I'm over my limit," or you could just click ignore and keep scrolling and doing that, and of course I ended up in that habit, and then I ended up getting rid of the notification altogether because it was an annoying step that I just found myself going through anyway. But if you find it to be a problem with yourself, it would be a really good idea to get into the settings and see if it's possible to start limiting it on your device, and then the parent controls of course are separate to do that for your kids. But it did give me a moment of pause. Like okay, I have spent now an hour and a half on Instagram, and it was a check. Even if for a split second I got that notification on my screen, it shut off my app, and it said, "Okay, you've hit your limit on social media today." I had the opportunity to either click ignore and keep scrolling, or I could just say, "Okay, that is it," physically put my phone down. And I did find myself putting my phone down more often when I got that notification and engaging with what was around me, and I found a lot of the time it was just passing time. Like it was not like I was actually researching or doing anything productive. I was just sitting there doomscrolling, as that term has been used, doomscrolling and not being productive at all. And then I was watching TV at the same time, so that's two stimulus. I'm sitting next to my husband, so we're not engaging. It was a nice reality check for sure.

KIM: I think a lot of people listening or watching might see themselves in that conversation where you've got one screen going and you've got your other in your hand, there might be something else going on around you. What -- is having these screens kind of addictive for us? Can we really be addicted to all of this stimulus?

DR. WILLIAMS: Yes. And we then perpetually get used to that nervous system dysregulation. And so over time, we're not being intuitive and not having any idea that what is the science actually behind nervous system dysregulation, what is that leading to, what is my anxiety and where is my depression at, where is my stress? After sitting on Facebook or Instagram comparing my life to the 500 people that I went to high school with now 30 years later, is there a point to that and where is that getting me? That's making me maybe feel bad about myself, feel better than the other people, comparing myself in some sort of way. What really is the point of that? Then I have the news on, which is not the most positive. So I'm watching the news, I have my kids running around, someone's not being paid attention to in the end. The news is on for no reason, my phone I'm sitting comparing to myself, my kids or my husband, somebody is around not getting attention. So, if you could just take a pause and take a stop -- I know if people are watching this, they're probably on Instagram or seeing this on social media, so it's a very ironic place to say, maybe at the end of this episode, after you finish watching this clip, you put your phone down and engage with the world around you.

KIM: Now, it's an important reminder. And so for those of us who have difficulty, maybe we see the amount of hours that we spend on apps or on our phone in general, we see those high numbers and we really do feel like we want a hard break. What would you tell that person?

DR. WILLIAMS: A little goes a long way, because the hours are going to change and fluctuate throughout the day. Our work might be busy one day, it might be slow the next. The weekends will be maybe time that it's higher, maybe it's lower. So I would just start to notice patterns, start to notice patterns of how long. If you're actually going into your settings and seeing the concrete numbers, see if there's patterns of weekday, see if there's patterns of certain apps. Maybe it will take, "Okay, I need a break from this app," not necessarily my entire phone, "but I need a break from this app. I'm going to delete it. I'm going to hop off for a little bit. I'll come back when I'm ready." But a little goes a long way. If you can set your phone down in the kitchen while you're sitting on the couch, that's progress. If you can sit your phone in the kitchen while you go to bed and maybe you use a traditional alarm clock. What's that? Something that actually rings on our nightstand instead of our phone. So if you can just, like, separate yourself physically from any of your devices, that goes a long way. You don't necessarily need to throw it out for a week.

KIM: What can we fill our time with and it be a positive thing versus just the doomscrolling?

DR. WILLIAMS: It depends on what you're feeling. So it depends on what you're trying to accomplish with being on your device. So, sometimes what you need is a walk to regulate your nervous system, regulate your heart rate and your blood pressure. Maybe that walk needs to be inside on the treadmill because you have a lot of energy that you need to get out. Maybe that walk is a slow and mindful walk outside with connecting with nature. Maybe you need to stay on your phone and call someone. Maybe social connection, you're still on your device, but instead of sitting and comparing yourself on an app, maybe you're FaceTiming someone or giving someone a phone call and connecting. So I would just take a pause and just kind of assess, "What do I need right now? Is it feeling dysregulated with my body? Do I feel like my nervous system is in like this chronic fight or flight? Am I feeling like I need connection? Is that why I'm on social media, is because I'm just wanting to connect with people, and am I finding myself sending people things or memes or sending people things through their messages? Or is it that I need to be mindful and I need to do a meditation? I need to connect with myself, I need to ground myself in the present moment because I feel my stress is exploding out of me and I'm not knowing anything else but to sit on my phone." So, take a pause and try and assess and be intuitive and see what it is you're feeling. I think you'd be surprised at the answer. And so, back to a mental health plug for this, I really encourage people to genuinely connect and catch up and see how people actually are doing on the inside. You're gonna get a lot better and deeper of a connection than just liking or hearting someone's post on social media.

KIM: Yeah, 'cause -- And I've been guilty of it too where I haven't called friends in a significant amount of time, but I'll send them memes every single day. And so, it would probably be better to just pick up the phone or send a text.

DR. WILLIAMS: But it's a lot easier to just send it when you're sitting on social media. It feels like you're still connected to this person. You haven't seen these people in years or months, but you feel like you have a sense of what's going on because you're following them on social media. So that's kind of the irony is that I feel like I'm connected. I feel like I know what's going on in everybody's life because I spent my two hours catching up on Facebook, but do I really know what's going on? And would I be surprised or shocked to hear that it's maybe opposite? We don't know what's going on behind closed doors. So, again, I would just invite -- pick up the phone, send a text, even if you're not getting a text back, even if the person didn't answer, leave a voicemail, leave a text, "Hey, no need to call me back, I was just calling to see how you were doing, just calling to catch up. I had a few minutes, no rush, no big deal, I'm just thinking of you." Even that small text could go a long way. We don't always have hours to connect with people, and sometimes it is fulfilling when we have two hours to truly connect on what's been going on in your life in the past couple months, but not all of us have hours to give to our friends or family. So, just a text, "Hey, thinking of you, hope you're doing well, have a great day." That could really go a long way.

KIM: Aww, I love that. And I think you bring up such a good point, because what is actually on social media is very external. And so, you're not really allowing yourself to engage with someone else's inner life or have someone kind of engage with what's going on in your inner life as well.

DR. WILLIAMS: Right. And so a lot of times we find ourselves wanting to control that, and that's our social media lens. That's our social media person. It's almost like a completely different person is how we portray ourselves to those that follow us and those that are around us. And I think we generally know who our followers are. Is it mostly family, is it mostly friends, is it people from gosh knows where I found this person or connected with them and now we're somehow friends on social media? So we often tailor what we put out there towards that group of people.

KIM: Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you would want someone to understand about boredom or mindfulness?

DR. WILLIAMS: I would just invite everyone to take a pause. When they're feeling bored, when they're not feeling like they're getting stimulus, maybe when they're overstimulated and it's causing exhaustion or nervous system dysregulation, just take a pause. Take a second, assess what you're feeling, maybe define what you're feeling with an emotion or a feeling word, and see what you need. Because I think you would be surprised what happens when you take a pause and actually think about what it is that's going on inside your body or inside your mind, because our first thought is to just overload that, and go on social media, doomscroll, connect with somebody that's actually ending up disingenuous. So take a pause, and a lot of times you just have to connect with yourself.

KIM: Such good advice. And, you know, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.

DR. WILLIAMS: My pleasure. It's been really fun. I'm glad we got to connect.

ZACH: All this talk about rawdogging boredom, as you and Dr. Williams described it, you've mentioned plane rides a lot.

KIM: Mm-hmm.

ZACH: And I couldn't help but think, did you ever see the Seinfeld episode where they're on a plane and it's Elaine and her boyfriend Puddy, played by Patrick Warburton, and he's kind of a simple-minded guy, and it's like I don't know, it's like a 12-hour flight and he's just sitting in the plane seat and he's looking forward at the seat. And she's like, "Do you want like a magazine or a book?" He's like, "No, I'm good." And he's just looking straight at the back of the seat. That's all I could think about.

KIM: That is what the challenge is. That is the challenge that young people wanna do.

ZACH: That's all I could think about when you guys were talking about this.

KIM: Yeah, but planes have evolved so there's a screen. The flight map is allowed.

ZACH: Well, what do you like doing on a plane?

KIM: You know, I like having the flight map up.

ZACH: Okay.

KIM: And it's especially fun when you're on an international flight and you're like, "Oh, we just like, we're over water now," you know, I like that. I like reading. I usually take a book with me.

ZACH: Same. I do so much of my reading when I travel, because I'm like, "What else are you going to do? You're stuck on this plane." Apparently, you're supposed to just stare at the seat in front of you, I guess what you're supposed to do these days. But let's talk about reading for a second, right? 'Cause that kind of goes into what we're talking about. You're disconnecting, your focus is on one thing. I think that achieves the same goal as the rawdogging boredom in a way, because it's about not just being overstimulated. And I think when you have to focus, that's why I like a physical book, you know, pages, 'cause you got to like turn the page, read the thing, 'cause if you're scrolling on your phone, how tempting is it to just go click on something else, right?

KIM: Yeah, and you know, I think the physical book is another thing, because if you're reading on a device, then what happens? If you don't have your notifications muted, all of a sudden you've gotten an email. Someone has sent you a text. Like there's -- I think there's a lot more...

ZACH: Distractions.

KIM: Yes, when you're using an electronic device to read. So, that is why I love a physical book.

ZACH: Mm-hmm.

KIM: And then when we talked about those not allowing yourself to just be present in a moment, like the example about when somebody's going to like whoever you're dining with goes to the bathroom and then now you're just like sitting there alone.

ZACH: Right. I immediately reach for the pocket and pull my phone out.

KIM: Yeah, it made me think, 'cause I used to love when I would go places by myself is I would always have a book with me. I used to carry books with me all the time, just for moments like that. And even though you're reading, it's still like an invitation to someone to say, "Hey, do you like that book? Hey, do you like that book?" you know?

ZACH: Did you get a lot of that?

KIM: Sometimes.

ZACH: No one has ever come up to me in my entire life and asked me that. [Laughter]

KIM: Well, did you --

ZACH: I feel like such a loser now.

KIM: Maybe the books you were reading just didn't prompt a question.

ZACH: "Oh, the novelization for Star Trek VI. That's very interesting." No, you're absolutely right, because headphones is the immediate like "leave me alone" social signifier, right?

KIM: Yes.

ZACH: So you're not going to be like, "Hey, what are you listening to?" , right? But a book, you're right, it does, as rare as it might have been for me, it does invite conversation for others. Well, you know, talk about a plane again.

KIM: Yes.

ZACH: That's like, "Oh, hey, what are you reading there?" That's a little bit more, you know, I feel like that still happens.

KIM: Yeah, I feel like it still happens, and you know, 'cause we've been talking a lot about social connection in some of the episodes that we've been featuring here on the podcast. And so, you know, I think there is something to be said about boredom and social connection, because I think a lot of times when we're bored and we're going for our phone, maybe the thing that we want is social connection, and we're trying to use the phone for it, but we're not doing it in the way that's going to get us the connection that we really want.

ZACH: Right, and something else you and Dr. Williams talked about was, you know, beyond just sending memes to your friends -- And look, I love a good meme.

KIM: Same.

ZACH: About half my group chats are memes, right? But there's actual conversation in between those memes, and that's what's important, right? If you're an active participant in these things instead of just doomscrolling, liking posts, that sort of thing, which has its place, and we all do it, right? But, you know, if you wanna be able to have a true back and forth and a connection with someone out there, someone that you talk to every day maybe in real life, or maybe not, but you know what I'm saying?

KIM: Oh, yeah, of course. And, you know, I think because we follow people on social media, we have this idea that we know what's going on in a person's life. But also that is what a person has curated for others to see.

ZACH: Absolutely.

KIM: So if you really wanna know what's going on with your friends, like you know they went to Ibiza or wherever, like fancy international vacation, but if you really wanna know what's happening in the day-to-day, you need to send that text. You need to make that phone call.

ZACH: I feel like a lot of people are waiting for that. But we're all afraid to be the person that takes the first step of that. Like, "Hey, saw you went here. How was that trip?" right? And then conversation, who knows where it might go from there? It might just be two or three texts back and forth, or it might lead to an unexpectedly deep life update from people. You never know, right?

KIM: Yeah. And, you know, and I thought that boredom, looking at why you're feeling the way you are and reflecting before you just like instinctually pick up your phone, I think that that's going to be my biggest takeaway. And that, you know, and I do think I'm going to be sending a few more, "Hey, how's it going?" texts, 'cause, you know, I know that you liked the last meme I sent you, but, you know, how's work, you know? How's life?

ZACH: Yeah. And then being able to sit with yourself, right? Because, you know, we all have so much going on in our lives. A little self-reflection is good, right? It can help you figure out, you know, why you're feeling the way you are, what to do next, that sort of thing. And if you're constantly distracting yourself, you're never going to find those answers, right?

KIM: Yeah, you know, just putting the phone down, and I don't think it's very practical for us to completely give it up, but finding a way for the technology to work for us, and so we're not living with it, you know what I mean?

ZACH: I do. I do. The struggle is real.

KIM: Yeah.

ZACH: The struggle is real. So, all right, that's going to do it for us this time on On Health with Houston Methodist. Be sure to share, like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We drop episodes Tuesday mornings, so until next time, stay tuned and stay healthy. ♪ ♪