PODCAST: No, a Plant-Forward Diet Doesn't Mean Breaking Up with Meat — Here's Why

ZACH MOORE: Welcome to On Health with Houston Methodist. I’m Zach Moore, I’m a photographer and editor here and I’m also a longtime podcaster.

KIM RIVERA HUSTON-WEBER: I’m Kim Rivera Huston-Weber and I’m a copywriter here at Houston Methodist.

ZACH: So, Kim, I’ve been hearing the term “Plant-forward meals,” and I think I know what that is, but could you better define that for us?

KIM: It’s kind of a newish term. So, I think sometimes when people think of plant-based eating, they tie it very strictly to vegetarianism or veganism, but I think plant-forward eating is just a focus on getting as many fruits and vegetables into your day as possible. I’ve self-identified as a vegetarian off and on…

ZACH: Okay.

KIM: Since I was in my teens. I’m kind of on again if it -- as it were. And, you know, I still eat fish. I’ll still eat meat here and there. But I’d say what I’m doing 90% of the time is really plant-forward eating. And it’s just, you know, I’m trying to eat as many fruits and veggies as I can during the week. And so far, I’ve been pretty successful. How about you? Do you eat a lot of plant-forward meals?

ZACH: I have dabbled in pescatarianism, which for the uninitiated means, like, fish is your meat and then maybe some red meat like once a month or something. So, that was a few years ago. I’m always trying to -- something.

[Laughing]

Right. You’re always trying something. And plant-based meals seems to have a lot of positives. But what are those, what are some negatives? That’s the kind of thing we’re talking about today, right?

KIM: You know what? I found it to be very easy because I think this time I’ve been a lot less dogmatic about it and a lot less self-punishing. So, you know, if we go out to eat and I want a hamburger, a red meat burger, I eat it.

ZACH: Mm-hmm.

KIM: And then, you know, the next day, you know, I’m just eating plant-forward meals all day. 

ZACH: Okay.

KIM: And there’s not really any emotion tied to it anymore, because I think sometimes, you know, when people think about adopting this style of eating pattern there’s a lot of potential baggage, I guess, because, like, that you have to be a 100% perfect or -- Especially if you wanna identify as a vegetarian or a vegan. But as we’ll hear from our expert today, you don’t need to have that identification to be able to have this eating pattern work for you.

ZACH: Alright. And who did we talk to about plant-forward meals?

KIM: We spoke to Fatima Zamudio. She is a Registered Dietician here at Houston Methodist.

[Sound effect plays to signal beginning of interview]

KIM: Thank you so much for being with us today, Fatima.

DR. FATIMA ZAMUDIO: Thank you for having me.

KIM: I’ve been exploring what most people would call vegetarian or a plant-based diet for, I don’t know, the past seven, eight months, and I don’t buy meat, and I don’t cook meat at home anymore, but I’ll still consume some dairy and eggs. And when I’m out to eat, I still might eat a burger or something like that. But I would say what I’m doing 90% of the time is plant-forward eating. I want to just get as many vegetables and fruit into my day as possible without being, you know, too dogmatic about it. So, to start, I’d love to know what the health benefits are of a plant-forward diet and what kind of benefits can we see once we start incorporating more plant-forward meals into our diet?

DR. ZAMUDIO: This is a great question and there’s actually an abundance of research showing the benefits of just more plant foods in people’s eating patterns. To begin with, and this is not an all-inclusive list by any means, but decreased risk in many chronic illnesses like heart disease which is the number one reason people are dying today in this country and in the world. Stroke, type two diabetes, several cancers, cognitive decline, and even depression. Eating more plant foods can help to improve blood pressure, blood sugar levels, and cholesterol which kinda, you know, explains why we have a decreased risk for chronic illness. And overall, it helps to decrease inflammation in the body because these plant foods are so anti-inflammatory with all the phytochemicals and antioxidants that we’re receiving to help boost our immune system. It can actually also help to prevent cataracts and macular degeneration which is the leading cause of irreversible vision loss for adults over 60. So, that’s a pretty big deal. And it can help to boost longevity as well. You probably heard of the blue zones. Have you heard of the blue zones?

KIM: Yeah, yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: So, this is where people that live the longest in the world and they eat a plant predominant or plant-forward diet. So, another thing, you know, if we wanna age gracefully and healthfully and not just live till 80 or 85, you know, but live in a healthy manner, not with taking a lot of medication, not being able to walk. It can promote a healthy weight as well. This is because plant foods are naturally lower in calories and higher in nutrition. All that fiber too helps to promote satiety. Something that’s really, really cool too is that plant foods can help to boost metabolism. A study actually published in 2020 showed that the plant-based group increased their after-meal caloric burn by an average of 18.7% after 16 weeks. And this is without exercise intervention which is pretty amazing.

KIM: It sounds like there are only upsides when we are incorporating less meat and more fruit and vegetables into our diets. But, I think when you’re first starting out trying to eat more plant-forward meals, I think just because if you’re a person online in the world you’re, kind of, confronted with all of these different, I don’t wanna say misinformation, but it’s just out there where it’s just a lot of conflicting information. You’ll see things like you can’t get enough protein, or that if you eat soy-based products it’s gonna affect your hormones, or vegetables don’t get enough essential amino acids, or they’re incomplete proteins and that you have to protein combine, and all these different things. Can you talk about some of the myths that are out there about plant-forward eating and which ones might be steeped in truth and which ones aren’t?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Yeah. And, actually, I do wanna mention that a few years ago, the Academy of Nutrition Dietetics, they released a statement saying that appropriately planned vegetarian to include vegan diets are nutritionally adequate, and this is for all different stages of the life cycle. And these kind of eating patterns, again, plant-forward, plant-centered, can provide health benefits like we talked about right now and the prevention and treatment of certain diseases as well. Now, as far as the protein, getting enough, this is a common question, right? How -- Where are you gonna get your protein?

[Laughter]

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: You can definitely get enough protein as long as you’re eating enough calories and eating a variety of foods to include the plant-based rich proteins. And the recommendation, the RDA is actually not that high. It’s .8 kilograms per kilogram of body weight for the individual. And most people are exceeding the recommendation, and this includes vegetarians and vegans, so it’s not truly a concern. For example, just to give you an idea, one cup of lentils has 18 grams of protein which is equivalent to about three eggs, you know. So, if we’re including, you know, these beans, and tofu, and grains that were gonna be consuming more of, you’re definitely gonna be meeting your protein needs.

KIM: What about soy…

DR. ZAMUDIO: Mm-hmm.

KIM: Affecting your hormones? Is that real or is that just a myth? ‘Cause you see that one quite a bit online.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Popular to contrary belief, plant-based proteins also contain all of the essential amino acids, it’s just at lower proportion. So, they contain all amino acids just in lower proportion compared to animal proteins. And as long as you’re eating a variety, you don’t have to even protein combine. Like, you don’t have to eat -- pair this with that as long as you’re eating a variety throughout the day. And as far as soy, one of the reasons for the concerns is the safety of the isoflavones, which are phytoestrogens found in soy products. And these studies were based mostly on non-human animal studies that didn’t reflect human biology. So, the evidence suggests that actually soy food should not be classified as endocrine disruptors associated with disease. And both the American Institute for Cancer Research and the Susan Breast Cancer Foundation encourage the consumption of soy. And soy is actually associated with a reduced risk of breast cancer and prostate cancer. In populations who regularly consume soy like in China and Japan have much lower rates of these cancers compare to the United States.

KIM: Wow.

DR. ZAMUDIO: And they can be part of our balanced diet and safely consumed a few times a week. They are great source of protein, rich in B vitamins, fiber, potassium, calcium, and magnesium. I would just recommend the best way to consume is through like tofu, soybeans, edamame, soy milk, so some of these less processed food options. But it’s not a super food either. So, if somebody doesn’t like soy, they don’t have to eat it. If they don’t like tofu.

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: But if you do, it’s completely fine to consume in your eating pattern.

KIM: Yeah. I’m sure we’ll talk about people not liking tofu later.

[Laughing]

DR. ZAMUDIO: Yeah. Poor little tofu gets a bad rep.

KIM: I know. But, I don’t know, I feel like it’s a sponge. It just takes up whatever flavor you put on it.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Yeah, exactly. I agree.

KIM: Kind of to that point, a lot of Americans are raised with this kind of concept of when you think about your plate, your plate has a meat and two sides, like, maybe two vegetables or something like that. Meat is usually the centerpiece of whatever meal you’re having. We think of vegetables as kind of the side stars of the plate. For a lot of people, when you take meat out of the equation, it’s very confusing because it’s like, “Well, what am I gonna eat? What’s my plate gonna look like?” When we’re thinking about incorporating more plant forward meals, how should we be thinking about the makeup of our plates and is it as simple as just making vegetables the star of some of our favorite meals, like, instead of my chicken parmesan, I’m making a mushroom parmesan or something like that?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Well, I would say, not just veggies, definitely we wanna include the veggies, right?

KIM: Mm-hmm.

DR. ZAMUDIO: But the center stars of our plates, the healthy carbohydrates, if we’re adding the plant-based proteins definitely, and the vegetables. You’re right, here in the United States, you know, it’s like, “What are we having for dinner? Is it steak? We’re having chicken?” And that’s usually half of the plate or more, and then the veggies are kinda like to the side, like, eh, maybe they make it, maybe they don’t. So, when we’re thinking about dinner, or lunch, or breakfast, like, what are the veggies we’re gonna have? What’s my healthy carb, whether that’s a whole grain, or a potato, or a sweet potato, or another starchy vegetable, or beans. Thinking about it that way instead of, like you said, the chicken or the animal protein. So, not just the vegetables because we don’t just wanna consume mostly vegetables ‘cause we’re not gonna get enough calories with just veggies.

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: So, we wanna make sure that we have that healthy carbohydrate in the plant-based protein as well, and a healthy fat too.

KIM: You, kinda, mentioned it before, so when we’re thinking about getting enough protein, which doesn’t sound like it’s as much of a problem, but what types of the plant-based protein should we be incorporating and what might that look like for different meals throughout our day?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Beans definitely. They are a powerhouse of fiber and protein, and they’re one of the blue zone staples, so another reason that it’s a great plant-based protein. Tofu, which we talked about a little bit, tempeh, which is another form of tofu, different whole grains like oats, quinoa, farro, millet, buckwheat, and some of these whole grain pastas too and whole grain bread, nuts, seeds and nut butters, soy milk, preferably unsweetened.

[Laughter]

And even some vegetables have a decent amount of protein like brussels sprouts, broccoli, a russet potato. I mean, a russet potato has about 4 grams of protein. So, maybe these foods are not higher sources, but we can see if we’re including different variety of plant foods in our meals and eating pattern overall, we’re gonna be getting protein from different sources. And as far as in meals, breakfast would be something like tofu scramble with vegetables, and maybe a whole grain tortilla, or a smoothie made with soy milk and fruit,  veggies, but then also nut butter or seeds, or oatmeal with soy milk and some nuts and fruit. And then lunch you could do like a bowl meal with quinoa, or brown rice with beans, or wraps, like black bean veggie wrap with sweet potato or hummus. For dinner you could do a pasta with tofu or plant-based, like, ground meat. You could do something like a black bean burger with the whole grain bun. You could do instead of a all-meat chili, you could do a three-bean chili.

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Over, like, a baked potato or a baked sweet potato. Or a stir-fry using edamame, chickpeas. If you don’t like tofu, chickpeas are typically great, you know, like, Asian stir-fries as well.

KIM: All of that. I’m really getting hungry.

[Laughter]

I’ve been a vegetarian off and on in my life. In my experience, I think when people first get into plant-forward eating, they might gravitate toward meat alternatives such as plant-based burgers and sausages. And there are so many of these meat alternatives out there available now like way more than when I was, like, trying to be a baby vegetarian in, like, the 90s. What should folks know about this imitation meat, and can we eat too much of these? And is it really benefiting us if our one plant-forward meal that we’re planning for the week is just simply swapping out that meat-based hamburger for a plant-based one we get at the grocery?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Yes, like you mentioned, these vegan nuggets or burgers, like Impossible or Beyond Meat, are growing in popularity. And even though these are plant-based they’re generally highly processed.

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: I would recommend treating these foods as transitional foods for individuals that really wanna decrease their meat intake because they have a similar nutrition profile to burgers like the Impossible and the Beyond Meat. Their saturated fat content are gonna be pretty high. Or saving these for special occasions. Like, if you’re going out to dinner and you don’t wanna eat a red meat burger and so you wanna try the Impossible burger on the menu. Or, you’re going to a barbecue, this would be a good way to look at it. But it’s important to know that plant-based burgers are way more environmentally friendly than traditional beef burgers. So, if we’re talking about it in that standpoint, even if we’re swapping plant-based burgers for regular burgers we are making an impact with our carbon footprint, so. There’s different options in the grocery store too that are not as high in fat, like Gardein. You’ve probably seen it. It’s a popular vegetarian burger brand. Or we’re comparing like 4 grams of fat compared to 14 for the Impossible. I personally like to make my own black bean burger.

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Very simple, like, five ingredients. So, that’s another option too if you really like burgers.

KIM: What are the five ingredients, if you don’t mind me asking?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Just canned beans, oats, but you could ground them. I find that that binds the patty better. And then you could do garlic, paprika, onion powder, and then sea salt and some onions. But you could add more seasonings if you want. But just, you know, a few seasonings and the base is the black bean with the oat that’s gonna help to bind, and then just mix that together and put that in the air fryer, or your oven, or put it over the pan. But I prefer to put it in the air fryer ‘cause then I don’t have to mess with it and it just -- It’s more crispy.

KIM: Yeah. I know that we did a podcast about the air fryer. It’s one of the powerhouses of the healthy kitchen.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Mm-hmm.

KIM: We’re, kinda, talking about, like, this transition that someone can make when they’re trying to incorporate more into their diet. So, I’d love to know what you think is the easiest meal of the day to really get started? What’s the easiest meal to start this shift with or to just add more?

DR. ZAMUDIO: I would definitely say breakfast, because oatmeal or overnight oats especially, are pretty common breakfast or even something like toast. I mentioned tofu scramble, this could be another option, or a smoothie. So, smoothie, oatmeal, this is pretty quick, right?

KIM: Mm-hmm.

DR. ZAMUDIO: This is a great opportunity to add more fruit and if you wanna do some veggies. So, if you wanted to do something savory, it is a very quick meal usually and one of the easiest in my opinion to do plant-forward or plant-based.

KIM: That kinda makes sense because our schedules are so busy that it might be easier to plan out breakfast and kind of make that transition a little easier.

DR. ZAMUDIO: And a lot of people are already doing like toast for breakfast, or they like oatmeal, or they like smoothies especially here in Houston with the heat. These would definitely be some options.

[Music to signal a brief interjection in the interview]

ZACH: In addition to the health benefits Fatima mentioned, plant-forward eating can also help with reproductive health in both women and men. A diet rich in plant-based foods can help reduce inflammation thanks to the antioxidants, healthy fats, and essential nutrients found in various fruits, vegetables, whole grains, beans, legumes, nuts, and seeds. Reduced inflammation is vital for reproductive health. Some research suggests that a plant-based diet can have a positive effect on sperm count and sperm motility. A plant-based eating pattern is also associated with lower rates of gestational diabetes and a 50% lower risk of ovulatory infertility. As always, talk to your doctor about your diet and health needs should you be trying to conceive.

[Music]

KIM: After the break, Fatima shares more practical tips for making plant-forward meals.

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 [Sound effect signals return to the interview]

KIM: Do you have any suggestions for, like, quick, easy meals that are plant-forward?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Focusing on the three main components makes it easier to just wrap your mind around too, like, “What’s gonna be my healthy carb for the meal? What’s gonna be my plant-based protein or lean protein?” Because plant-forward, as you know, is not completely vegetarian or vegan, “And then my veg.” So, keeping those three components in mind. But something really simple is cooked beans, or a soup over a baked potato, the pasta meal with a bean or tofu. Lentil walnut meat substituted for, like, ground meat tacos. And thinking about bean-based meals for the night, maybe you already do taco Tuesday. Instead of ground meat you could try some of the lentil tacos, or you could do black bean and sweet potato tacos. For breakfast, I’ve mentioned a couple of ideas. The oats are like super quick, right? A smoothie is super quick and you can do that the night before where in the morning you’re just grab and go. Another really easy thing is just like a pita bread stuffed with chickpeas and some greens, or a salad. So, if we think about the three components that we’re just kinda swapping and switching up the ingredients to make it more simple in our mind. And that balance is really important, because if we’re just eating vegetables, we’re not gonna be getting enough energy so we’re gonna be feeling hungry and be like, “This doesn’t work,” or, you know, “I’m not feeling well.” So, really important that balance with the meals.

KIM: At the top we talked about when you’re consistently incorporating more plant-forward meals, you’re gonna see the benefits of them, right? How do you counsel someone when they’re trying a more plant-forward eating pattern and they are just like, “This isn’t working?” What do you say to them?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Well, looking at what they’ve been doing but encouraging to start with the meals that they already enjoy. So, kinda just modifying their favorite meals already. So, if that’s a certain pasta, if that is pizza, how can we add more to this instead of thinking like, “I have to take all this away and start from scratch.” But more, you know, veggifying your favorite meals already. The favorite is gonna help a lot because it’s familiar, right? So, if it’s something really strange for a person and they’re not comfortable with change, then that can be very challenging. But the more familiar it is, the easier transition it’s gonna be, right? If I’m doing, you know, like pizza, maybe I’m just gonna do a whole grain crust and maybe I’m going to do just like a marinara and just try less cheese or something, and then add veggies, and maybe try some chickpeas on my pizza that I’ve never had before. I would say that starting with more familiar meals and modifications.

KIM: I think it’s pretty clear on the On Health podcast I’m the foodie of the group. So, where do you have suggestions where someone can find nutritious plant-forward recipes to get excited about it?

DR ZAMUDIO: Forks Over Knives. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the website or the documentary years ago.

KIM: Yeah.

DR ZAMUDIO: But they are one of the biggest recipe sources for plant-based meals and they have tons of different 30-minute dinners or how to cook with grains, or bean-focused recipes. A lot of different categories that I think would just be fun to kinda just take a peek at and see that plant-based eating can be so delicious and simple too. Blue Zones also has a recipe section on their website. Another one that’s maybe not as popular here, but it’s like a Canadian home chef. It’s called Plant You, the website, and she just tries to do like really simplistic meals as well that, you know, is very beneficial, right? ‘Cause we don’t wanna be in the kitchen. We don’t -- Especially during the week, right? We want simple, nutritious, and yeah, not like 30 ingredients.

KIM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you kind of bring up a point because I think maybe that initial transition when you’re trying to do more plant-forward cooking you might think like it might be too much too soon where it’s like, “I don’t know how to cook tofu and all these things.” So, like, being able to find explainers out there and maybe more simple recipes is kinda maybe the way to go.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Definitely knowing that there’s gonna be some trial and error, right? Especially, I feel like with tofu, it was a trial and error for me. So, it’s totally fine that -- just having that in the back of your mind. And that it’s gonna take some time, right? To plan. And knowing that it’s okay to embrace convenient foods like frozen veggies, frozen fruit are great for smoothies. Canned beans are totally fine. I would just recommend like low sodium, no sodium just so that we can modify it ourselves, and, like, prewashed veggies. So, shortcuts are okay for healthy eating and this includes plant-based eating. Something else that I was gonna mention too, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the Dinner Daily.

KIM: Uh-uh.

DR. ZAMUDIO: This is a service-based resource that you can select your eating preferences to include like more vegetarian and vegan. And what it does it shoots out, like, recipes for you and creates a grocery list, and it’s tied to the grocery store that you go to. For Texas, I believe it’s only HEB and Whole Foods, so this could be a great way to get some -- It’s kind of like a meal planner essentially. And it’s fairly inexpensive.

KIM: Yeah. I have definitely identified as a vegetarian at different points in my life. Not everyone is going to want to go and be fully plant-based. And there’s a myriad of reasons why someone would self-identify as a vegetarian or a vegan. So, for those folks who might turn away from more plant-forward eating just because they’re concerned about labels for whatever reason, what would you say to them to encourage them to incorporate more fruits and vegetables and try out plant-forward eating?

DR ZAMUDIO: I would say simply focusing on adding more instead of having a mentality of restriction, but just adding more plant foods to their meals that they already enjoy, and being flexible, and definitely no labels are needed, you know. It’s not necessary to say I’m this or that ‘cause it kind of makes people feel sometimes like they’re in a box. And the reality is that only a very small portion of the population is completely planted-based vegan, and it’s gonna fit more people’s lifestyle if we’re flexible. So, thinking of how I can add, you know, whole grain or fruit to my breakfast or more veggies to my lunch and dinner. Snacks are a great opportunity too, to incorporate more fruit with nut butter or veggies with hummus. Just knowing that there’s no perfect eating pattern, but any steps towards, you know, more plant foods is beneficial, and starting with one meal at a time if that works, or practicing something like meatless Mondays which is, you know, kind of well -- are popular, I guess. And just, again, having that flexible approach and starting gradually. Like, you don’t have to go from, you know, steak to tofu overnight.

[Laughter]

Right? Perhaps just focusing on smaller portions of meat and animal proteins, not complete elimination, and really having fun with it. Seeing it as an adventure, like, “I’m gonna explore, you know, how to include more plant foods in my eating pattern,” but in knowing that it can be very delicious and fun to eat more plant-based foods.

KIM: I will say that since I’ve decided to be more plant-forward in the semi-recent past, I’ve found cooking a little bit more fun just because it is a little bit more -- I don’t wanna say --challenge is not the right word, but definitely it’s more fun because I’m trying to figure out a way to, to your point, veggify some of the favorite meals that I cook. One that I’ve really come to enjoy is a portobello mushroom. It’s almost kind of like a hoagie, kinda like the Philadelphia cheesesteak but you’re using mushrooms instead of the meat. And I think I prefer it more than the meat-based version now.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Yeah, yeah. Something like that, and that’s wonderful, you know. I like portobello fajitas or a steak where you’re using, you know, the portobello mushroom as a steak. And another really simple example is like using cashew queso instead of using dairy and regular cheese. You’re using a healthy fat to make that cheese, and you can add some broccoli if you choose to, or maybe you can put some cauliflower in the sauce. So, it’s just ways that you maybe would have never thought about, and you’re like, “Wow, this actually tastes really good and it’s healthy.”

[Laughter]

KIM: Yeah. I think it’s all about positive reframing. Another thing that I’m interested in is what does plant-forward eating do for our gut?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Yeah. One of the other great benefits of eating more plant foods is supporting your gut health, which is very important for your immune system. You’ve probably heard most of our immune system is located in our gut. So, this all ties in with the decreased risk of illnesses but we’re really not just feeding ourselves, we’re feeding the bacteria in our bodies, and they really like -- The good bacteria in our bodies, they really like those plant foods.

KIM: Something that I’ve been seeing online and I don’t know if it’s just my algorithm and not everybody else’s, this concept of trying to get 30 veggies or 30 fruits and veggies a week for our gut health. Is there any truth to that or is that just like someone trying to sell me supplements?

DR. ZAMUDIO: There is some truth just the variety. You know, you’re feeding different microbes. But, you know, for someone that’s starting out, like, I wouldn’t say like eat 30 different ones a week. I wouldn’t start off with that. Just trying to get more variety in general, and really focusing on the foods that you already like that are plant-based and having more of that. So, yeah, eating the rainbow as you wish, the different colors fruits and vegetables, but again, not thinking like, “I have to eat this amount of different numbers, or different varieties like 30.” Because the more difficult it is for a person, the less likely they’re gonna do it.

KIM: Yeah. So, like that 30 a week concept might be too restrictive if we’re starting out. That’s kinda more an advanced level if you wanna try that.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Or too daunting for some people.

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Maybe for somebody that’s been eating this way for a while, maybe they’re paying attention more to it and they’re like, “Oh, yeah. Well, I eat this in a day.” Thirty different -- not just in a week, but in a day. But yes, you know, it’s beneficial to eat a variety of plant foods, but we don’t have to hone in on the number or really counting if we don’t want to.

KIM: So, as we start incorporating more of these plant-forward meals into our days, and our weeks, and our months, you know, what are some of the benefits that we can start seeing?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Things like improved energy, improved bowel movement, which is really important, right?

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: So, really supporting that gut health, digestive health. Some clients, you know, report less brain fog and weight loss just in a matter of a couple -- three weeks, just from making these changes again, because you’re including more nutrient dense foods, makes sense that we’re gonna get more energy too. Just feeling lighter, less bloated, maybe just less puffy, less heavy. And these are just some, it varies from person to person.

KIM: We’re not gonna start feeling like, “Ah, I’m a new person,” right away. It’s more about being consistent with it, correct?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Correct. And to how much as well, right? How much we are including. ‘Cause if I’m just including broccoli with my lunch but then everything else is the same.

KIM: Yeah.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Then maybe no, right? So, or not as much, maybe not as much if we’re just doing broccoli with lunch. But it’s a start, so yes, the more the better.

KIM: That’s a really important message that once you get started, there’s always the opportunity to keep going and add more plant-forward meals and then will come the change.

DR. ZAMUDIO: Right. And having that mentality of adding more, how can I add more nourishing plant foods to my eating pattern instead of thinking, “Oh, I have to get rid of this, or this, or that?” So, not having that mentality of restriction or dieting. So, embracing more of adding more nourishing foods, being flexible, and just gradually what’s gonna work for you, or what is gonna work for the individual. Whether it’s starting with one meal, maybe just focusing on aiming to have half of their plate vegetables for, like, one to two meals, or maybe I’m going to do a meatless day, meatless Monday. So, it kinda just depends, and depends on the individual. Some people wanna go hardcore.

KIM: Like, overnight, right?

DR. ZAMUDIO: Yeah. Some people are like, “No, I’ll just, you know, one thing at a time.” And that’s fine.

KIM: Yeah. Yeah. Different strokes for different folks.

DR ZAMUDIO: Mm-hmm.

KIM: I wanna thank you so much for this conversation today. It’s made me feel better about the path that I’m on with my plant-forward eating and I’m really encouraged to keep going and maybe I don’t wanna say be more hardcore, but certainly it’s an exciting way to approach nutrition, and I just wanna keep going.

DR ZAMUDIO: That’s wonderful. Well, I am happy to have been here. Thank you for having me.

[Sound effect plays to signal end of the interview]

ZACH: So, a lot of great tips from Fatima. The one that stuck out most to me was start with foods that you like, right? And then make adjustments to those as opposed to starting out with something completely foreign to you that you might not like at all. And that’s gonna be a good kinda stepping stone, or just that could be what you do, period. You don’t have to completely reinvent your diet here. 

KIM: I loved that she said that because I think that’s where I’ve had the most practical success in my personal life where it’s just instead of making chicken piccata, I’ve made cauliflower piccata and it’s been delicious, and I love it. And so, being able to find the flavors that you like and maybe it was a meat-forward dish before, but you’re finding a vegetable or a plant-based protein that you can swap in for that, and it still is good.

ZACH: Yeah. Mushrooms, cauliflower, you’ve mentioned that, like these beans, right? These can be your friend. Like she talked about instead of meat chili, bean chili, a three-bean chili, right?

KIM: Yeah.

ZACH: So, there’s lots of options out there and you can just make these minor adjustments that are gonna add up over time.

KIM: Yeah. So, that tip where we are veggifying our favorite meals, kinda lends to what -- another thing she said which is that we should really focus on what we’re adding to our diets verses putting so much focus on that meat that we’re talking out of our diets. So, you know, ‘cause we talked about the sort of meat alternatives. So, like the plant-based burgers and sausages that exist.

ZACH: You like those?

KIM: I have them on hand in my freezer but kind of like Fatima said, like, I only kinda trot them out for certain occasions. And it’s usually when I’m feeling lazy and I don’t know what I want to cook. And so, it’s between making this thing that I have in the freezer versus using a food delivery app. So --

ZACH: So, it’s a laziness effort money reason, not a health reason.

KIM: Yeah. It’s like --

[Laughter]

Well, it’s kind of like a health reason. So, it’s like --

ZACH: You’ve bought them already. So, you’ve already made that choice, right?

KIM: Yeah. I’ve made the choice. There was a coupon or something, and so they’re in my freezer. And so, like, I’ll trot them out if I’m making spaghetti or something and I want the plant-based meatballs or something.

ZACH: I gotta say, a lot of these -- I know we’re not just talking about, like, a mushroom, or a cauliflower instead but, like, you know, plant-based alternative meats, like there’s a lot of things that go under that umbrella. Special kind of burgers that are planted-based, or like you said meatballs, right?

KIM: Mm-hmm.

ZACH: If you find the right one, a lot of them are pretty good. Look, we’re not gonna lie. They don’t taste just like the real thing, right? But they are pretty solid, tasty alternatives where if you’re really trying to make these micro adjustments it’s a good place to start.

KIM: Yeah. I liked that she said that using them as transitional foods when you’re trying to cut back on your meat consumption, I think that’s a great way to get started. So, if you’re swapping out that burger that you make at home once a week for a plant-based burger, it might be the better choice. But it’s not something that we should be leaning heavily on in our diet.

ZACH: Yeah, don’t think, “Oh, I switched my burgers out for plant-based burgers so now I’m healthy I can do whatever I want now.” Now, that is oversimplification, oversimplification.

KIM: Oversimplification. And also, I was really heartened to hear that the more consistent you can be with plant-forward eating the more benefits you’re gonna see in your overall health. And so, I think if you start with a meatless Monday or if you start making your taco Tuesday meatless, these small, little actions do add up over time, and you’ll see the benefits down the road.

ZACH: No, she’s so right in that if you make a point to do it, like, “Hey, this day of the week, I do this and this day of the week I do that.” Like, you’re gonna be more apt to follow up and make these choices habits.

KIM: For sure. And, you know, she said that the easiest meal of the day is often breakfast to kind of get yourself started with this eating pattern. So --

ZACH: Have a potato breakfast taco.

KIM: Yeah. Have a potato breakfast taco.

ZACH: That’s where my mind went. I don’t know about --

[Laughter]

KIM: But, you know, I think that’s a great point. So, if you’re out and you’re ordering breakfast tacos, maybe get the potato ones instead. Or, you know, if you’re planning your meals for the week and you’re doing overnight oats, that’s healthy. That’s plant-based. Just make sure you’re having your healthy fats and getting some protein in there as Fatima said.

ZACH: Well, that’s gonna do it for this episode of On Health with Houston Methodist. Be sure to share, like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We drop new episodes Tuesday mornings. So, until next time, stay tuned and stay healthy.